Argument 1: It is wrong that less number of decimals = less supply submitted by
Let starts with the background of the debate:
Hypothesis 1: Electroneum (ETN) has less supply than Bitcoin (BTC)
Hypothesis 2: BTC has less supply than ETN
The argument of Hypothesis 1 is that BTC has 8 “decimal points” and ETN only 2 “decimal points” which bring the argument to something like this:
1 satoshi = 0.00000001 BTC
1 mETN = 0.01 ETN
Max supply of BTC is 21 Million, which is equal to 21 * 1014
Max supply of ETN is 21 Billion which is equal to 21 * 1011
Which means ETN’s total supply is 1/1000 of BTC’s.
The argument of Hypothesis 2 is that the “decimal points” is just “fractional notation” and it is not significant in the calculation of supply.
Max supply of BTC is 21 Million BTC
Max supply of ETN is 21 Billion ETN
Which means BTC’s total supply is 1/1000 of ETN’s.
At the beginning when Richard Ells explain about the 2 decimal points, I immediately thought: “No, you can’t do that!” “The fraction is insignificant; how can you include that into the calculation of total supply?”
So, for quite a while, just the same as other people I tend to believe Hypothesis 2 is right and this is quite disturbing to think that ETN has this “flaw”.
Then I came to a realization that I am thinking in technical/engineering formula concept and try to forced it into a dynamic currency calculation.
This is a big flaw in hypothesis 2 argument, because we are using Math (as in pure Math calculation) perspective instead of the understanding of how Currency behaves or works.
In Math, the unit of numbers is a standard, where 1 (100)
is the lowest denominator, and decimal points are just the “fraction of the unit”, which gives the argument that no matter what is the length of the fraction, 21 Million will still be less than 21 Billion.
But we are not talking/discussing about “just numbers” here, we are talking about a Currency.
Currency has what is called as “circulating denomination unit”, and every currency has the lowest circulating denomination unit. For US Dollar and UK Pound, it is 1 cent or a penny. In Australian Dollar and Canadian Dollar, it is 5 cents (5 cents coin).
So, when we talk about BTC has 8 decimal points and ETN has 2 decimal points, we are not just talking about fraction of unit, we are talking about the “lowest circulating denomination unit” of a currency.
Let say that ETN and BTC mining is getting harder and harder. The lowest unit a miner can earn is 0.01 ETN in Electroneum supply and 0.00000001 BTC in Bitcoin supply (we are not talking about price at the moment, but focus on supply).
With 0.01 as the lowest unit that can be mined in ETN, that means for ETN to reach max supply is 21 Billion/0.01 or 21 * 1011.
With 0.00000001 as the lowest unit that can be mined in BTC, that means for BTC to reach max supply is 21 Million/0.00000001 or 21 * 1014.
Which simply means ETN will reach max supply faster, hence lower supply (or vice versa).
If we are talking about token, then arguably Hypothesis 2 can be right, because tokens are just token; and they are not designed to be a currency, there are significant differences.
Electroneum is designed as a currency and projected to be the “de-facto mass adopted” currency. So, think about it as a currency, NOT token.
Let’s get further into this with some examples of “real” (i.e.: fiat) currencies.
We know that currently US Dollar is one of the most (if not the most) dominant and popular currencies (fiat currencies). At the time of writing, these are the exchange rates of USD (US Dollar) to some other currencies (source: xe.com):
1 IDR (Indonesian Rupiah) = 0.0000736762 USD (US Dollar)
1 USD = 13572.90414000722 IDR
1 VND (Vietnamese Dong) = 0.0000440036 USD (US Dollar)
1 USD = 22725.4133752693 VND Argument 2: The 2 decimal point in Electroneum is a flaw?
Now, let’s talk about the lowest transactional/circulating denomination unit of USD. It is $0.01 USD, which is represented by a penny or 1 cent coin.
Have you ever heard anyone say: “Hey, because USD lowest denomination unit is $0.01, this doesn’t make sense, this is a flaw. How am I going to exchange 100 IDR to USD? Because based on the exchange rate, 100 IDR is 0.0073762, it is not even 1 cent USD.
The answer is you don’t. People (currency users) behaviour change, and they adjust to it.
Currency is dynamic and involves people’s behaviour, not a static Math numbers.
If you go to Bali (Bali is in Indonesia), the most common lowest denomination unit of IDR in circulation is Rp.500 (IDR). There might be 200, 100, 50 IDR in circulation, but people don’t use them much. I saw some drivers (Taxi or Uber) using 500 IDR as “parking fee” or as “small change”, some “parking operators” even say that 500 IDR is not enough for parking fee, it has to be 1000 or 2000 IDR or even more.
Let say you come back from Bali with 10000 IDR left in your pocket. So, you go to bank to convert 10000 IDR to USD. You will get a weird looking face from the Teller trying to say “Are you serious?”
Why? Because it is not practical or common practice to exchange 10000 IDR to USD (in cash), as it is less than 1 USD (not including fee/commission). They EXPECT you to exchange a much larger amount of IDR.
Argument 3: The 2 decimal point will limit the price of Electroneum to something like $100, so 0.01 ETN will still be $1
I never heard anyone say: “Oh no, this 2 decimal points in USD will limit the price of USD, so 1 USD will never go beyond 100 or 1000 IDR.
The fact is, in the 90’s, 1 USD was around 1000 IDR or maybe even less, and now it is more than 13000 IDR.
How can a 2 decimal points affect the price or limit the price of a currency? I cannot understand the argument.
And this is just a fiat currency, as we all know that crypto currency is more “explosive” in creating price trend.
Borrowing some examples from fiat currency again, does this mean that people will never use calculation that is beyond 2 decimal points (like 3 or more decimal points)?
No, not necessarily, I believe more decimal points (something like 4 decimal points or even finer) are used in calculation of interest, loans, in exchanges, etc. Yet, it doesn’t deny the fact that the circulating denomination unit only has 2 decimal point.
Currency is dynamic, people and businesses will find one way or another to adjust with the price and denomination unit.
For example, in the old days when cash was king, when someone buy something in a shop with price of 80 cents, paid with 1 dollar bill. Then, the owner of the shop realized that he/she runs out of 20 cents coin and other less value coins. The owner of the shop will try to offer candy or chocolate or other cheap items as replacement for the change. The buyer might actually be happy with that because the buyer might appreciate candy or chocolate more than the spare change or coins.
In some payment systems, they mathematically rounded the number to the closest denominator units, like 5 cents or 10 cents.
In term of ETN, if necessary, when the price is skyrocketing. I believe, there will be some options, including creating “sub-currency”, akin to “Dollar coins”. You can buy something in ETN and get the “sub-currency” as a change. The sub-currency can either be pegged to ETN value or not, that can be defined later in the dynamic.
Argument 4: Technology affects the price of currency. Really?
Consider this article or infographic: https://illicittrade.com/infographics/worlds-most-counterfeited-currencies/
US Dollar is considered as the one of the world’s most counterfeited currency.
Then, consider another article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0412/the-most-counterfeit-proof-currencies.aspx
“ International Association of Currency Affairs (IACA) holds an awards ceremony for currencies and individuals that have made great leaps in protecting the integrity of currencies and the technologies that go into creating and manufacturing them. In 2011, the IACA voted the Bank of Uganda as the winner of the best new banknote.”
Yet, 1 UGX = 0.000277417 USD. How come? Based on some arguments, that the more advanced the technology a currency has, the more valuable is the currency. Then, it supposed to be 1 USD = 0.000277417 UGX, not the opposite, right?
How about Bitcoin? At the moment, BTC has relatively the least technological advantage to other coins. Then why its price is the top of the chart?
Yes, you don’t want a currency that is very easily counterfeited that it is become “public secret” that everyone can counterfeit the currency at will. But you also don’t need the most secure anti-counterfeit technology to give value to the currency or make the currency as the most valuable currency.
Because they are the most traded currency in the world. I understand there are fundamentals factors affecting the value, but it cannot be denied that people perceived the most traded currencies are more stable and valuable.
- US Dollar, EU Euro, Japanese Yen, UK Pound, Australian Dollar, Canadian Dollar and Swiss Franc, why are they perceived as valuable currency to people, investor and trader?
“Analyst says 94% of bitcoin's price movement over the past four years can be explained by one equation”.
That equation is about mass adoption or network effect. Put it simply, it shows that the success of Bitcoin and its price are NOT because it is the first, it is the most advanced technologically, it has the most unique features, etc. But because it gets the biggest mass adoption among other crypto currencies, at least for the time being.
When we talk about currency, people give value to currency because of “the fundamentals” value (because currency relates to the fundamentals of a country, policies and its users) and because it is the top traded/used currency in the world.
- Currency is dynamic. It involves people and people’s behaviour, not a static Math numbers or Technology features.
- There are significant differences between crypto that is projected to be just token and the one that is projected to be currency.
But when we talk about crypto currency, I think many people agreed it is hard to understand “the fundamentals”, so I believe the easiest to understand the value is how it will be mass adopted. The fundamentals values, I believe, will be easier to see at later stages as they will become more tangible.
These include relationships/partnerships, networks, how it will scale, how the team will keep progressing and keep making improvements (including technological improvements), the progression and manifestation of the planned roadmap, how agile is the team to respond to changes and challenges, and for ETN specifically, is the “ETN Community”. ETN community is a big asset for Electroneum like no other crypto currency has.
So, what’s the deal with 2 decimal points?
At the beginning, I thought this “2 decimal points” can be a drawback for ETN, but now I think it is a brilliant idea. Consider the following advantages of using 2 decimal points for ETN:
Why is this important? In order for a currency to be widely adopted, people need to be comfortable enough to use it and understand the transaction quickly and easily. People are already accustomed to 2 decimal points in currency. People mindset are already trained to calculate in cents as in 0.01 and not more decimal points. Thus, this will greatly help mass adoption
- Easy to understand, human friendly notation.
So, if the business community wants to adopt a crypto currency like ETN, it is “just natural” adoption.
- Businesses’ accounting or business model are setup around this mindset of 2 decimal points or cents of currency.
For examples, some little things like, how are you going to invoice customer with a number that has 8 decimal points? It will take longer for the business to adapt and adjust with 8 decimals. It looks like simple thing, but if you try to implement it in the business model, then it can be huge.
Another example, Businesses don’t need to adjust the format in their receipt/docket, because their current format is already 2 decimal points, just change the currency name to ETN, compare this with if the Business has to change the format of the purchase docket/receipt in 8 decimals. I am quite sure it will be quite chaotic in the first few weeks of implementation.
Then how about the data format in the database, reconciliation process, etc, etc. The list can be very long just trying to adapt with 8 decimals.
Thanks to 2 decimal points, which comes natural in every system that uses fiat currency, these integrations can be done faster and more easily.
- When Electroneum tries to create business partnerships and relationships with other big Enterprise, entity, organisation, network, etc. They don’t need to “overhaul” their system for ETN to be included in their systems.
I think most IT people and developers understand how mind blogging it can be to change whole system just because we need to adapt with 8 decimal points and 2 decimal points at the same time.
The key here is the integration of the systems can be done faster and easier.
You can see as ETN comes naturally with 2 decimal points, just like other fiat currencies. Integration of payment system and legacy point of sale (POS) systems can be done much easier, because ETN behaves similar to other fiat currency in term of calculation (decimal points).
- One of the target of Electroneum is to be adopted by the unbanked people, which means ETN will become one of the main currency for the payment system, which might involves, at least at early stage, features for exchanging between ETN and local currency.
The only differences (or benefits) are ETN is a crypto currency with faster transaction settlement, cheaper transaction fees, no country boundary (cheaper transfer fees), with no “middle man” like banks, no complicated registration to bank accounts, and has privacy features.
So, Electroneum community and ETN HODLers, we can look forward to the full realization of Electroneum’s potentials in the near future. I got the “feeling” that Electroneum community will play significant roles like in no other crypto currency.
PS: In using some currencies as examples, I am not undermining the currencies or users of the currencies. I have some friends and relatives from some of these countries whom I know are richemuch richer than average people in developed countries (in terms of Dollar wealth). It is just for the sake of example. I hope no one get offended by this.
Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with Electroneum, but I am an ETN ICO investor and HODLer. This is my personal opinion and perspective regarding the matter and NOT to be seen/taken as advise or suggestion in any kind.
Over the past weeks myself (a 23 year old from Vancouver, Canada) & my business partner (a 21 Regensburg, Germany) have tried a lot of different XBT exchanges and sellers. He reddits a lot and suggested I type up what I wrote down about our experience to share them with you. Great experiences
- 9.8 General
: Kraken is one of the better platforms we used, mostly when dealing with the Euro. We opened a Kraken account, made a $5000 USD deposit and a €7000 deposit and were ready to begin trading in under 24 hours. We ran into no problems with them, our orders filled quickly and the emails that we had with their team were fairly straight forward. More payment methods would make them a 10. Pros
: They have many pair listings, special types of trading orders including stop loss, take profit, and others. They accept SEPA payments for Euro and bank wires for most other deposits. They have good security practices (https://www.kraken.com/security/practices
) and have done an audit with proof of solvency (https://www.kraken.com/security/audit
). Well known team, public facing. Has LTC, NameCoin and Ripple. Cons
: Does not accept ACH payments for US users. Lack's transparency of cost on USD bankwires (TBD*). Some users have raised concerns over the pasts of the investment team (this had no impact on score but should be mentioned). Support team was quick and solved our problems. Bitstamp
- 9.5 General
: Bitstamp is a market leader and great exchange. We had a very good experience with them. They are probably our default choice if we had to use a general USD exchange to run an ATM or something. We made a deposit of $15,000 USD and trading went smoothly. It is important to note this exchange we withdrew only in Bitcoin, we did not try the Fiat withdrawals. Full transparency could make them a 10. Pros
: Large volume, great liquidity, fairly quick to get an account open and money deposits. Our time from opening an account to trading was under 24 hours. They take a decently low fee .5% Has a proof of reserves audit by third-party. Cons
: Audit is third-party and not proof of solvency. Little is known about management team. Bankwires are only real method to be used here. Does not allow trading in non-USD. Trades are only do Bitcoin. Many claims of Bitstamp freezing users Bitcoin under AML/KYC claims and asking for lots information such as signed wallets proving source of those coins (We did not experience this). Vault of Satoshi
- 9.2 General
: Vault of Satoshi is a much smaller exchange then the other "great" exchanges but they do really awesome things for XBT. Their team was very supportive and really quick. We had our account open, verified and trading in under an hour ON A SUNDAY. It was the fastest set up time of any exchange that deals with fiat currency. For user experience and security they would be our top pick. International support and higher volume could make them a high 9 if not a 10. Pros
: High security (http://www.reddit.com/vos/comments/27hd8d/are_my_coins_safe_on_vos/ci0yeua
) and transparency including daily generation of Proof of Solvency audits, very transparent team (https://www.vaultofsatoshi.com/about
) who are active on Reddit. Allows trading of over 20 coins to both fiat and to any other coin. Has Interac deposits for Canadians, they apparently can take an hour or two to enter the account, but ours took maybe ten minutes. Easily the fastest deposit method we found. Cons
: Pretty much just for Canadians unless you transfer coins in for day trading. Supposed to be expanding soon. Volume was lower but seems to be picking up. Needs a lot of personal information. Would be great to see more payment methods outbound. Good Experiences
- 8.7 General
: Coinbase is a great service, backed with good money and clearly a very secure environment. Being a dual resident and citizen I was able to use Coinbase for some of our purchases via my US bank account. It was really quick to open an account and get buying. We bought around $5000 worth of Bitcoin to send into other coin-only exchanges. The support staff were helpful, but could have been trained a bit more about Bitcoin knowledge. Overall things went really well. More coins, international support and proof of solvency could put it up to a 9. Pros
: Clear set price not dealing with any "orderbooks", great platform very easy and straight foward to user. Great for new users. Has ACH payments for American Users so you don't have to do a bankwire. It is backed by a major investors. Has stable relationships with a bank unlike many other small exchanges. It is fast, secure, and friendly support staff. Cons
: Not a full exchange, US only, support can be slow to respond, has no proof of reserves, promotes the use of online wallet services. Does not allow you to buy or sell coins other than XBT. Cryptsy
- 7.2 General
: Was used for dealing with smaller altcoins that weren't on other exchanges. Our total volume on there was roughly 8 BTC. Deposits went fairly smoothly, although we did have to contact support in regards to one submission of Blackcoin that did not appear in our balance. The support team was slow and rather rude but did get the job done eventually. Pros
: No verification needed for trades, deposit and go. Lots of currency pairs. High volumes. Strong platform. Great chart features. Great price ticker on the side. Cons
: No proof of funds, not much security, doesn't support fiat, support team is kind of a pain to deal with if something does go wrong. Should really only use if you are day trading QuadrigaCX
- 7.0 General
: QuadrigaCX is a small Canadian exchange. All around a decent service we only did around $500 transaction with them in order to do a quick test but we were quite happy with the Canadian provider we had selected. These guys are decent backup. It took less than 48 hours to get my account open and trading. If they had proof of solvency and support staff then we would have likely given them an 8 or a 9. Pros
: Low fee (0.5%), has book for XBT/AU (gold). Has online interac payments. Cons
: Not large books, no proof of solvency, lower transparency, called contact number twice during operation hours and got voicemail, email response was next day and was short but answered my questions. InstaBT
- 6.5 General
: These guys are similar in concept to a Coinbase. It's small limit purchases of XBT instantly. Site looks a little dodgy but they are an accepted payment method on Vault of Satoshi so we decided to give them a try for about $100 in XBT. Pros
: It was quick and easy and did not require any type of I.D. verification. We had a support phonecall and the guy seemed friendly enough. Lower fees would make this method a 7. Cons
: Has limits and really high fees. I think the fee was around 9%. QuickBT
- 6.4 General
*: These guys are pretty much the same as above, although rather than being used for Vault of Satoshi they are used for CAvirtex. The service was all in all the same, nicer website, did $100 in XBT. Only reason for the lower score is when they guy called me to verify my phone number he was a bit of a grump. Lower fees and friendly support would increase their score. Pros
: Quick online interac without verification Cons
: Guy was a bit of a grump, and had really high fees. Bad Experiences CAVirtex
- 4 General
: CAvirtex is a Canadian only exchange. If I am not mistaken it's the oldest one around. They only do XBT and LTC. We did about $10,000 through them before we started exploring other options. A number of accusations have been posted in this sub against them that make them questionable, but their user support, slow time in dealing with funds and general attitude towards there users is what got them the low score from us. There would need to be lots of changes to raise their score. Pros
: Usually the price is a few bucks cheaper here than at other exchanges, not sure why though. You can withdraw your money to a pre-paid debit card. Cons
: In our experience we found it extremely slow to get started. We tried to open an account and it was almost a week before we got verified. We made a deposit via Direct Debit (EFT) and it took about a week before it showed up in our account. When we tried to reach out to support about this it took 3 days before we got a snippy reply. All in all we were not impressed. It's not how people should handle customers. The Rock Trading
- 2.5 General
: We had decided to try this Malta based e-trading platform with our Euro funds. The exchange is rather small but has some ok features. Ultimately we only did about €700 before we got fed up using them. They support SEPA payments which is great but their support team could not give a shit about you. Pros
SEPA payments, lots of currency support, BTC shares Cons
: By far the worst support around LocalBitcoins
- No Score General
: Localbitcoins pairs you with sellers in your area, digitally or by meet up and then exchange Bitcoin. Before we got into exchanges I had done maybe $2500 through localbitcoin purchases. You always end up over paying, you have to meet up with the person which is time consuming and you never know who you are going to get. Pros
: The only real advantage to this method is that you aren't going through an exchange and having to verify. It allows those who are worried about their identity to keep it secure Cons
: You end up way over paying for the bitcoins that you purchase, you never know who you are going to get and some users have even been mugged at such meetups. In my case I arranged to meet someone and waited over an hour at the meetup spot and no one showed up. Next to Try
-Bitpay (for sales tool)
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